Curse

Fantus · Nov 11, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

I actually LIKE the general idea of the update. That said...:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropius

All this talk of drawing and holding aggro makes me queasy.

In PvP the roles are reversed. The "aggro" invariably winds up going on a back-rank squishy, like a necro or monk, instead of the warriors up front.

And there's a LOT more of it, as anyone who's played against IWAY teams can attest. So, we deal with it. We get healers and protters who are actually decent, who don't have to stop and rest every 15 seconds, who understand energy management.

In PvP, my Mesmer is not getting hit by level 29 Ataxes for like 300 points of damage per hit. Also, a Mesmer does not really have a defense that's able to deal with that kind of damage output. Do you really think a PUG is likely to take my Mesmer along knowing that she WILL be attacked by madly running Ataxes and be killed by two hits of one of them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropius

Enemies attacking random targets instead of all mindlessly beating on "The Tank" with gladiator's defense while "The Nookers" dropped meteor showers on them sounds like a welcome change.

Now the squishies will have to learn to defend themselves, or get competent prots.

Prot yourself. Use Distortion. Use Aegis. Snare them. Kite them. Hex them. Maybe people will start realizing how absolutely amazing necros and mesmers are?

Cool idea. My mesmer obviously can't prot very well (ok, mine can, but you can't really expect it from EVERY Mesmer, can you?). Yes, she COULD snare if she'd take the appropriate skills. Cool, does that know mean that EVERY squishy should become a water mage in disguise now? If I'd focus 4 of my 8 skills on self defense - which seems to be necessary now that I can no longer assume not to be ganked by level 30 enemies anymore, what kind of _Mesmer_ would there be left? Not too much of one, I guess. I am a shutdown Mesmer largely. I like this role. I don't want to become a tank with a sexy Mesmer Fissure Armor. Tanking is what WARRIORS are here for. This update has the great danger of replacing Echo Nuker boredom with Snare Mage boredom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entropius

My only concern about this patch is that they made the AI worse, by having them run from Fireballs and Ignite and such in a way that can be exploited.

Indeed. As I said, I like the general idea of making mobs a bit more intelligent. But this update does indeed leave some room for improvement - namely:

- DO NOT make critters lose aggro if evading from AoE spells.
- DO NOT make run them away PROACTIVELY from spells that are not even launched
- DO NOT make them madly dash away after getting hit by one shot AoE spells (humans wouldn't do this, too).
- Adjust the energy cost and recharge times of the AoE skills that are now bascially useless. A Firestorm is worth like 5 energy now and a Baltharzars Aura not more than 10.

entropy · Nov 11, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfin42

And they can STILL choose straight fire. They can set enemies on fire, they can make fire rain from the skies, they can torch anyone who dares to get close to them, and they can cast bursts of fire that char enemies who stand too close to each other.

They just can't rely any more on fire tactics that are based around blatantly braindead enemy AI. Now the enemies are only MOSTLY braindead and a bit more interested in self-preservation. This requires a change of tactics, not a change of profession.

The ai still suck ass. Except they are worse. They aren't braindead now. They are cowards. GREAT IMPROVEMENT ANET YEAH GO GO GO!!!!!

quickmonty · Nov 11, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santanus_Perro

A game can cheat? A non-living, programmed entity can cheat? And I am the definition of a casual player. I have put in, with all my toons, a little under 300 hours of play since the game came out. My guess that is right smack dab in the middle of how often people play. I am the casual player and I love the update. Challenge is good. Makes a group use more tactics in going FTW.

Perhaps "cheating" was not the correct choice of words. What do you call actions like computer controlled enemies being able to instantly recast, several times, skill that take 15 to 30 seconds for YOU to recast? Just one example. There are many more.

Lord Oranos · Nov 11, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Yeah, the messed up thing is people are going to wow as I speak, all I wanted was dragos flat bow, but nooo thats 80k, so now I have to farm... not anymore, Ill just HOPE Ill get lucky doing some mission I got sick of the 6th time Ive played through it.(And btw I dont think running through Sorrows time and time over is fun at all)

And to everyone that says think of a new build with snares.. well guess what, i never liked ele's and most likely never will, Im not going to waste my time making one to just farm.

blueyoda · Nov 11, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

everyone acts like farmers are the only people complaining.

OPEN YOUR EARS AND LISTEN ~ (or eyes for that matter :P)

I like being able to SUPPORT my team in PvE ... now it takes twice as long and it is stressful as hell. I don't farm - hell I wouldn't know how nor do I care. I've salvaged since Pre and I've got all best armor for all of my characters (not fissure) - I'm fine.

I backup my friends when they need help (guildies & friends) ... to me that was what the game was about. Now it is just iritating and I don't even feel like playing it anymore. I used to be a "powerful" monk and be able to control the enemies ~ kill a lot ~ heal friends ... yada yada

now they just scatter and everyone else dies - yay

the game was fun, now it's laughable ~ there are other games out there, maybe I should start another ... not the first time a game has gone downhill

id0l · Nov 11, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Obviously, if the change was an overall good change, you wouldn't have 90% of the people irritated and complaining, and only 10% defending it.

Please, defend the even dumber AI now, because since it runs from any and all AoE, the game is all of a sudden more tactical? And I suppose casting PBAoE on yourself for becoming invincible for set amount of times is the new tactic.

chronobyte · Nov 11, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

I personally object with the way ANet handle this update, so much so that it compells me to register and make this post.

Elementalists are mainly artillery types; they are weaker, less mobile, takes longer time to mount an attack, but pack powerful punch and target multiple enemy when they do fire. Someone correct me if I'm wrong in this, isn't this the main reason why ele class exists?

I'm a mud elementalist and secondary mesmer, I enjoy my build not so much because I can do uber damage (I leave that to the pyromancers) but I can become a great support for my teammates with my wards, Eruption (AoE blind), Maelstrom (AoE interrupt), ice spikes and deep freeze (AoE snares), Chaos storm (AoE mana drain). These spells cost a lot of mana, take a longer time to cast, and take longer time to reload.

This update practically renders all these skills useless. I'll use Maelstrom as an example- great AoE interrupt, decent damage, very high mana cost, very long casting time, very long reload time, causes exhaustion. Great for disabling and weakening a group of enemy casters- keeping them at bay while the rest of my teammates take them down one by one, starting from the healers.

To cast Maelstrom you spend 25 mana, make yourself vulnerable to attacks, and mesmer interrupts during the 4-second casting time, suffer exhaustion, and have then have to endure the 30 second cool down, the pay off? A few enemy suffers 25-50 damage and have 1 or 2 spells interrupted before they scatter away, and that's if I'm real lucky.

One would argue: Be smart, snare them first! Sounds good on paper, but why don't you try it first?
You'd have to spend more time SNARING THEM ONE BY ONE OR SPEND 15-25 mana and more time to snare them simultaneously with ice spikes/deepfreeze. Snares will slow them down for at most 10 seconds. Casting maelstrom takes 4 seconds. It takes about 1 second before it actually starts interrupting.

If it's going to be this way then you might as well take them away from them all together. They no longer justify the expensive mana, casting time, and reload time. They've always been useless in PvP and they are now useless in PvE. So they're useless period.

I would not be opposed to the update if only they think it through and do better job testing it. What they're doing right now is breaking about 45% of ele class. If the goal is to create BALANCE (and BALANCE is the keyword here), why do so by rendering many skills completely useless? And by useless I mean miniscule payoff for the mana and time cost. To those people who say they're great for breaking up mobs- ARE YOU KIDDING ME? It's great for breaking up mobs if the spells cost 5 mana, 1 second cast, and 10 second reload. Not great when you spend a huge chunk of mana and make yourself vulnerable to attacks during the long casting.

Why such carelessness ANet? And why the minimal alert? This is not exactly a "small" update. I'm very disappointed.

Darkest Dawn · Nov 11, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

I didn't even try to read all those farmer's complains.

Hey! Not all of us are full time farmers. I was doing the quest from Augury where you have to kill ten minos and it took me so much longer because they kept running all over the place I found myself(warrior) constantly chasing after a target.

When I went to do some more exploration of Grenths, I actually had to go back in the War Camp and switch out Cynn for Durham since her AOE's were causing total chaos and even got my team of henchies and myself all killed multiple times since the henchies chased the fleeing monsters into another's agro range. The result was way to many monsters and we were overrun.

So us solo guys who use henchies for our party (or those who do it to any measure) are SOL since the henchies chase down fleeing monsters and the elementalist's do not use water or air.

Valdis · Nov 11, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thailii Monkey

So your guild dosent help u out with stuff like that?

My guildies are great...but get real....is there anybody here that would spend almost 100K on someone.....not to mention that you can get Droks armor for 1.5K a piece, that has the same stats.

I once bought a complete set of Platemail from Droks for a guildmate....but I/Anyone would never spend 100K for someone elses armor, no matter how good of friends we are.

I spend many hours getting the things I want/deserve...by spending the time and creating builds....im not in favor of this update...but just like the "War on Drugs", if a human can think of a way to stop it, then another human can find away around it!

domino69 · Nov 11, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valdis

Actually they both have the same attack rate:
A Longbow has a longer range
A Eternal Bow has shorter flight time (amount of time to get to the target)

who said anything about eternal bows?

i was comparing storm bows and collector ascalon long bows...a storm bow is a long bow and is therefore equal to a collector ascalon long bow (and any long bow for that matter) in firing rate, flight time and projectile arc...

eternals are composites...i know my bows

FrogDevourer · Nov 11, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Running away from a Maelstrom or Firestorm (or any other AoE DoT) is one thing. But warriors running away each time zealot's fire is triggered is *very* stupid. The same stands for running away from a one-shot AoE spell like Fireball, or running away from an AoE spell with negligible damage (the AI will run away from any spell even if it deals only 1 damage per second).

Sure smart players will adapt, but that's missing the main point: the reasoning behind this update is flawed.

It was implemented for various reasons:
- to upgrade the AI? It simply doesn't work as you can force mobs & henchmen to run like headless chickens (even with negligible damage, and even when they are able to kill their target easily), and monsters still do not focus fire, and they still cluster stupidly
- to slow down farming? My solo-farming builds are still fine, thank you. I trust a new wave of builds will crop up in the coming days. Simply put, it is *still* easy to farm solo because the core of all farming builds is untouched. Add stance breakers, disenchanters, hexes & conditions in all places and you can say goodbye to solo farming.
- to enhance team play? In short, if most PuGs were unable to use the stupid tank/nuke/heal/support (interrupt, shut down, battery, minions...) template, I wonder how most players (and especially newcomers) will cope with monsters who scatter and attack random targets as soon as a noob uses an AoE spell.

- to have more realistic behaviour? Running away from a 1 dmg/sec firestorm (or away from a near-dead target) for the win!
- to increase originality in builds & parties? Not only will we see new optimized trends in the coming days, but such a balance update could have been done by tweaking balthazar's aura and meteor shower, and other popular skills, or by buffing up unpopular elements

GWGuru · Nov 11, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valdis

My guildies are great...but get real....is there anybody here that would spend almost 100K on someone.....not to mention that you can get Droks armor for 1.5K a piece, that has the same stats.

I once bought a complete set of Platemail from Droks for a guildmate....but I/Anyone would never spend 100K for someone elses armor, no matter how good of friends we are.

I spend many hours getting the things I want/deserve...by spending the time and creating builds....im not in favor of this update...but just like the "War on Drugs", if a human can think of a way to stop it, then another human can find away around it!

I've bought 8 sets of 15K armor for guildmates...wth else am I going to do with gold in this game? it's completely useless....

brokendaylite · Nov 11, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

ugh i cannot stress how much anet screwed up with this one.....i just signed on and was reading some of the chatter. and people were all complianing. i thought i was just in this forum. maybe a couple others. but it looks like anet really really screwed up. and theys till have said anything about it eh? damn wen good companies go bad.

delfin42 · Nov 11, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by id0l

And I suppose casting PBAoE on yourself for becoming invincible for set amount of times is the new tactic.

Well, invincible except when facing Mesmers, Rangers, Necros and other Eles that can do substantial damage from a distance and/or disrupt your PBAoE spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkest Dawn

When I went to do some more exploration of Grenths, I actually had to go back in the War Camp and switch out Cynn for Durham

Holy crap, this update actually creates a reason to use Dunham? It WAS overpowered.

Seriously, a little tweaking to Cynn and Orion's skillset and tactics is in order.

Sir Skullcrasher · Nov 11, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

I said it once, i'll say it again. you can farm and do anything you want.. but some updates will pissed you off more than other. This patch finally make the game more challenging and fun for people to enjoy. And it finally give us a reason to use a different build on our elementlist instead of the good old echo nuking build. I'm not bashing people for this but ..... nuker elementlist are pretty linear. They just used arcane echo than click on metor shower, fire storm, and other spells while the enemies stay there and take the beating. Sure it easy for them to kill things but now it actually make you think about what skills to bring and used. Instead of depending on the echo nuking ability.

blueyoda.. i feel your pain but i guess someone report to A-Net "Hey your AI is dumb, they don't ran away from any spells" and boom there your sign. A instant nerf of elementlist.

But seriously folks.. I dare you.. (any of you) to speak up against this AI upgrade. say a FPS shooter games while enemies don't run away from you. Is that even fun to play... all day the enemies would stay out in the open and take those head-shot like a good little brainless AI. How about RPG or Adverture games where AI don't react to you to let you win. Bottom line, dumb AI make the games useless, smart AI make it hard and some fun to enjoy.

Loralai · Nov 11, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

I expect a future update to tweak fire skills a bit in ways that'll make AoE fire a little more useful, without buffing them to the point where they're the default choice for any Ele again. Tweaking Orion a bit and making more viable Fire alternatives available in early towns might help as well

A point I made previously...If fire and AoE is not meant to be the default, a little more effort should have been made on the part of the developers to not start elementals with mainly fire skills.

entropy · Nov 11, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWGuru

I've bought 8 sets of 15K armor for guildmates...wth else am I going to do with gold in this game? it's completely useless....

CAn I have some pwetty pws lol. Who's the farmer now

party1 · Nov 11, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by purecash123

Good thing I was prepared a long time ago...
My ele is set with all skills and near perf modded collectors 20/20 staves for each of my attribute lines =)
...I wonder what will be the future price of Flint's Fleshcleaver....

and the future price of the ragos flame staff lol

some skills should be renamed:

Lava Font - new 5 sec ward against melee

Fire Storm - 10 sec ward

Loch · Nov 11, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Obviously, if the change was an overall good change, you wouldn't have 90% of the people irritated and complaining, and only 10% defending it.

You obviously don't get it. If you ever read these forums after a game update, you'd realize two things:

1) People who like the changes will keep playing the game.
2) People who hate the changes register for the forums and complain.

You get a terrible representation of gamers' opinions this way.

Darkest Dawn · Nov 11, 2005, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfin42

Well, invincible except when facing Mesmers, Rangers, Necros and other Eles that can do substantial damage from a distance and/or disrupt your PBAoE spells.

Holy crap, this update actually creates a reason to use Dunham? It WAS overpowered.

Seriously, a little tweaking to Cynn and Orion's skillset and tactics is in order.

Dunham is cool, but I usually only use him when playing certain builds. I usually choose my henchies based on how I will be playing and with what character. When playing a warrior, I like to tank and allow the henchie elementalists to rain death on my position. However, that won't work now. So yea, they will need to change the henchie elem's skills around if they are to keep this update as permanent.

As a note concerning the update, I said earlier, and say again, I'm not against the AI running from AOE, but simply there should be a delay of a few seconds before they bolt.